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Mister Batman
Oct 27, 2012


If you guys are still talking about culture and reactions to terrorism, here is a video of people's reaction to a 2010 explosion in the Moscow metro in which 12 people died on the spot (and 41 in total, at 2 stations):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npQiHscGCAs
Also, 1:12 to 2:25 in the video are not from the incident, but I guess the guy compiling it thought it was.

People are visibly upset but not generally panic-stricken, as this, culturally, became a usual enough thing over the years. IIRC, the general public reaction was basically "why is this still happening?"

-----

A friend of my mom actually ran in the marathon, but fortunately finished 30 minutes before the explosions. Weird how there's sometimes so few degrees of separation from things like this.

Chamale
Jul 10, 2010


Grundulum posted:

Without going all no true Scotsman on you, what kind of person would plant and detonate two bombs like this and NOT need mental health care?

I think a person can do something evil without being insane, like Osama bin Laden who was pretty much really pissed at American foreign policy. Having whack job political views doesn't necessarily mean someone is insane, and you shouldn't equate all crime with mental illness.

kitten smoothie
Dec 29, 2001


Ardennes posted:

Well I heard some rumors from the hill that the attack was probably not from a major organized group, pretty much leaves domestic terrorism annnnd... today is tax day. The explosions seems pretty small for a foreign operation, however if it is domestic, the date might be a coincidence or something interesting.

As has been mentioned before up-thread, it's not just tax day. Patriot's Day commemorates the battles of Lexington & Concord, aka the "shot that was heard around the world." OKC also coincided with the anniversary of those battles. While the battle happened on 4/19, the state observes it as the third Monday in April.

The date connection at this point means little though and without more information, it could just be the work of a sick SOB who wanted to blow up a marathon, no ideology involved at all.

KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD
Jul 6, 2012


SedanChair posted:

No, that's obviously untrue. For example during the election none of the major outlets pointed out that polling was accurate, instead giving equal time to crank Republican theories. The need to curry favor and gain access has resulted in the dissemination of active disinformation as neutral reporting. For all the problems conspiracy-based media has, it doesn't have that one.

For me it is less offensive because nobody important takes it seriously (see Thomas Friedman on anything other than mustache grooming tips).
Do you understand the distinction between the information itself and the way the public at large treats it?

Anukis
Jan 22, 2006


CommieGIR posted:

You can argue that sure, and while the fanbase of people like Alex Jones and Info Wars isn't nearly as big as, say, Fox News, its still a minority that generally takes a more...heavy handed approach to what they hear on their propaganda shows.

Think Doomsday Preppers.

Fox News? Funny, I had CNN and MSNBC in mind, among a slew of others.

Doomsday Preppers didn't slash welfare, didn't destroy public school districts for the political and personal benefit of scumbags, and don't protect a health care system that benefits an exceptionally tiny number of Americans at tremendous cost of the rest of us. We have our lovely Legitimate Media and their mundane everyday coverage to thank for those things, which affect far more people for far longer than anything the Infowars people have the capacity to do.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006


Anukis posted:

Fox News? Funny, I had CNN and MSNBC in mind, among a slew of others.

Doomsday Preppers didn't slash welfare, didn't destroy public school districts for the political and personal benefit of scumbags, and don't protect a health care system that benefits an exceptionally tiny number of Americans at the cost of the rest of us. We have our lovely Legitimate Media and their mundane everyday coverage to thank for those things.

I treat Fox News, CNN, MSNBC all the same.

But now you are going all MSM rage....and you are kind of missing the point.

Also, how does the voting record of Senators and Congressman relate to the reports in the media? The news media may have sold the stories, but that hardly makes much of a splash in Congress, they kind of do what they like no matter how much people tell you writing/calling your representative will change their mind.

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010


If there's video of the bomber in the act of placing the bombs, I wonder why they haven't released it yet.

ReindeerF
Apr 20, 2002


Grundulum posted:

Without going all no true Scotsman on you, what kind of person would plant and detonate two bombs like this and NOT need mental health care?
The entire everybody-in-the-west-has-a-disability thing is a slippery slope wherein anyone doing something evil is necessarily a victim of disease, but, you know, remove the specific context of this being America and people we're familiar with and imagine that the suspect is nabbed and the story reads "Palestinian plants bombs at finish line of Tel Aviv Marathon." Most people on this forum wouldn't likely say, "Oh obviously he's mentally ill." Same for Bill Ayers or Andreas Baader.

I'm not suggesting that today's bombing guy isn't a total nutter, he probably is, but feeling that you're at war with an oppressive government doesn't have to be a mental illness even if you're a totally misguided idiot. You can just be really stupid and wrong and become really angry and then do something awful because life dealt you a shit hand or someone you trust has used their influence to talk you into doing things or whatever.

EDIT: Or, obviously, you can be "right," but get overzealous or whatever and commit some heinous act in the name of an otherwise good cause. Or I guess you could also just be right and doing something right, depending on the viewpoint. I mean if this turned out to be a Pakistani villager whose family had been killed by a drone strike I think a lot of us would be like, "Oh."

ReindeerF fucked around with this message at Apr 15, 2013 around 18:03

Anukis
Jan 22, 2006


CommieGIR posted:

I treat Fox News, CNN, MSNBC all the same.

But now you are going all MSM rage....and you are kind of missing the point.

Also, how does the voting record of Senators and Congressman relate to the reports in the media? The news media may have sold the stories, but that hardly makes much of a splash in Congress, they kind of do what they like no matter how much people tell you writing/calling your representative will change their mind.

This isn't the "Why the Media is Terrible (at its job and for society)" thread, and I had no intention of making this many posts about it, but all I was saying is that for all of the nuttiness of conspiracy media, the post someone made saying they're comparatively less awful for us than corporate media was hardly some kind of bizarre, unfounded sentiment.

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009


TOOT BOOT posted:

If there's video of the bomber in the act of placing the bombs, I wonder why they haven't released it yet.
Because there's a chance he might be some guy who completely coincidentally was just throwing something away, and given that possibility they don't want to plaster his face everywhere and ruin his life, maybe

menino
Jul 26, 2006


WSJ now walking back the 5 devices story:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...0102614148.html

"Counterterrorism officials found five additional suspect devices, but a law-enforcement official said late Monday that investigators now doubt the devices were bombs."

Anukis
Jan 22, 2006


menino posted:

WSJ now walking back the 5 devices story:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...0102614148.html

"Counterterrorism officials found five additional suspect devices, but a law-enforcement official said late Monday that investigators now doubt the devices were bombs."

So we're on the "oops, our previous reports were wrong" part of the coverage arc. Kind of impressed it only took ~7 hours.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006


Anukis posted:

So we're on the "oops, our previous reports were wrong" part of the coverage arc. Kind of impressed it only took ~7 hours.

Well at least that makes it more likely this was just some domestic nutjob versus some sort of foreign terrorist plot.

dusty
Nov 30, 2004


zoux posted:

There are sadly many examples of countries that have experienced non-domestic terror. I don't think it's fair to compare reactions to domestic and non-domestic terrorism, because there are many more issues, such as othering and nationalsm, that come into play with foreign or religious terrorism.

It's hard to say.

Posters in this thread are outraged that I think that, from my comfy liberal perspective, the UK response fell pretty far short of the high-tide of US batshit crazy post 9/11. My spine is still chilled thinking how Bush started proclaiming "you're either with us or with the terrorists" while launching an international war & torture club and a fascistic police-state at home.

The point being that any politician sees opportunity in the ashes of tragedy - it's not like Norway or Britain had the opportunity to respond to their respective terror attacks anywhere near as madly or badly as the US did, even had they wanted to. And EW is right - feeling mad or [wanting to act] bad after someone tries to bomb you is hardly an exclusively American trait.

But he's clearly being disingenuous in ignoring the fact that America used it's influence coupled with international and domestic goodwill to radically reshape global politics in the aftermath of 911. No doubt BHO is getting messages of support from around the world right now - but he's no Dick Cheney.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Anukis
Jan 22, 2006


dusty posted:

It's hard to say.

Posters in this thread are outraged that I think that, from my comfy liberal perspective, the UK response fell pretty far short of the high-tide of US batshit crazy post 9/11. My spine is still chilled thinking how Bush started proclaiming "you're either with us or with the terrorists" while launching an international war & torture club and a fascistic police-state at home.

We're actually criticizing you because you think misstating the obvious in as insufferably smug a way as possible makes you smarter than everyone else. You have no idea how awful the UK's response to 7/7 or IRA bombings was and the notion that they have anything to teach the US is absurdly inaccurate. Please stop posting dumb things, thanks.

No one arguing with you thinks the US response to 9/11, et al. was well-reasoned or helpful. They're just laughing at your insistence that the US should model its response to tragic events after the UK because one of their WWII slogans makes for a catchy meme.

Anukis fucked around with this message at Apr 15, 2013 around 18:09

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009


Anukis posted:

We're actually criticizing you because you think misstating the obvious in as insufferably smug way as possible makes you smarter than everyone else. You have no idea how awful the UK's response to 7/7 was and the notion that they have anything to teach the US is absurdly inaccurate. Please stop posting dumb things, thanks.
Also people are dead and he's using that to make his dumb political points, wait until the bodies are cold before you smugly proclaim your cultural superiority (which apparently isn't even your cultural superiority, apparently you're just a British fanboy or something???).

Omi-Polari
Oct 4, 2012


Anukis posted:

This isn't the "Why the Media is Terrible (at its job and for society)" thread, and I had no intention of making this many posts about it, but all I was saying is that for all of the nuttiness of conspiracy media, the post someone made saying they're comparatively less awful for us than corporate media was hardly some kind of bizarre, unfounded sentiment.
Well, in fairness to your argument, the conspiracy media don't actually recommend people do anything. Their program for political change is to "wake up" and convince others to... buy Alex Jones merchandise? So in that sense, I suppose they are less dangerous because they are completely ineffective.

Ardennes posted:

I can oppose the views of someone and their actions, without thinking they are nuts. Terrorism is an extreme act, but it doesn't necessarily have to be irrational. It is pretty unlikely in this case this was an especially rational act because of the circumstances.
It takes a certain degree of sanity and rationality to be able to construct bombs, plan out how to hide and detonate them, and then escape.

Their actions might seem "nuts" but this terrorist - whoever he is - is operating with a coherent (although sick and twisted) inner logic that has split the world into good and evil. The terrorist believes himself to be a freedom fighter who is fighting evil. He's an avenging angel out to purify the world of corruption and filthiness. That's the basic profile.

If everything about your society is corrupt and filthy, then it's perfectly logical to go and do something like set off bombs at the Boston Marathon, and be capable of the rational planning needed to do something like that, even while it's completely disengaged from a healthy reality principle.

Omi-Polari fucked around with this message at Apr 15, 2013 around 18:18

Anukis
Jan 22, 2006


Omi-Polari posted:

Well, in fairness to your argument, the conspiracy media don't actually recommend people do anything. Their program for political change is to "wake up" and convince others to... buy Alex Jones merchandise? So in that sense, I suppose they are less dangerous because they are completely ineffective.

That is the point that I believe was originally being made, yes.

dusty
Nov 30, 2004


JT Jag posted:

Also people are dead and he's using that to make his dumb political points, wait until the bodies are cold before you smugly proclaim your cultural superiority (which apparently isn't even your cultural superiority, apparently you're just a British fanboy or something???).

I'm sad that 3 people were needlessly killed - but try and wipe away your tears before helplessly lashing out with your keyboard. Breaking news: there are car crashes with higher fatalities than this. Bird Flu has killed more people in China than terror killed people in Boston this morning.



So please, get some perspective for fucks sake. There are a bunch of posters in here with their grief-goggles on acting all irrational - and you wonder why people are worried, concerned and discussing the political ramifications of this?

dusty fucked around with this message at Apr 15, 2013 around 18:18

Joementum
May 23, 2004


I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank Mitt Romney for his foresight in providing for the health coverage of the citizens of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

Anukis
Jan 22, 2006


Joementum posted:

I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank Mitt Romney for his foresight in providing for the health coverage of the citizens of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
Best President Never.

dusty posted:

I'm sad that 3 people were needlessly killed - but try and wipe away your tears before helplessly lashing out with your keyboard. Breaking news: there are car crashes with higher fatalities than this. Bird Flu has killed more people in China than terror killed people in Boston this morning.



So please, get some perspective for fucks sake. There are a bunch of posters in here with their grief-goggles on acting all irrational - and you wonder why people are worried, concerned and discussing the political ramifications of this?
gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon

oldswitcheroo
Apr 26, 2008


So much downtime between the attack and us figuring out who the hell did this. We usually think Al Queda will let us know if it was them, the notoriety from claiming the attack being part and parcel of why they do it. Wouldn't any other multinational or even domestic terrorists conform to that?

Not much else to add but its just jarring because while this happens and its awful, we generally don't have to stay in the dark so long about who is responsible. I mean it just NEVER happens this way... Very odd.

Kafka Esq.
Dec 31, 2004


edit: this actually wasn't worth it.

I'm watching because this is a fascinating minute by minute look at what happens after a terror attack in a major city - a particularly common attack in cities elsewhere, but fairly uncommon in the United States. There are so many things you can draw from it if you keep calm and carry on.

Kafka Esq. fucked around with this message at Apr 15, 2013 around 18:33

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010


JT Jag posted:

Because there's a chance he might be some guy who completely coincidentally was just throwing something away, and given that possibility they don't want to plaster his face everywhere and ruin his life, maybe

I see your point, but I doubt that many people were placing fairly large objects in the trashcan in the hours before the bomb exploded. There was enough explosive material and ball bearings to kill and shred a not insubstantial number of limbs, it probably was at least backpack sized.

KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD
Jul 6, 2012


oldswitcheroo posted:

So much downtime between the attack and us figuring out who the hell did this. We usually think Al Queda will let us know if it was them, the notoriety from claiming the attack being part and parcel of why they do it. Wouldn't any other multinational or even domestic terrorists conform to that?

Not much else to add but its just jarring because while this happens and its awful, we generally don't have to stay in the dark so long about who is responsible. I mean it just NEVER happens this way... Very odd.
At this point I have doubts that this was an al-Qaeda attack, or even an attack by an Islamist group, since they tend to fall over each other to take credit in the aftermath, with news releases, videos, etc. to maximize the propaganda potential.

dusty
Nov 30, 2004


Anukis posted:

Best President Never.

gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon

No you see, you and other gibbis superstars shouldn't be posting until any victims have been allowed to reach room temperature... No actually, how about you give the goon jokes a rest? It's just shitting up the thread reading empty quotes coupled with witty one liners that boil down to "Haha amirite guys?!"


For what it's worth I'm not intending to defend 7/7 or the campaign against the IRA, merely hoping that political fallout to this current attack is as limited. It's your democratic right to shit up your own country as much as you please, go nuts. Just please, leave us out of it - we've been enjoying the Global War on Terror for a dozen years now.





edit//
VVVV

quote:

Someone asked me if I felt strange about it and I told them I didn't. This is probably the first time I've thought about it in years. I guess it's a mechanism to release control because it's impossible to spend your life worrying if you're going to be on /that/ bridge or /that/ airplane or /that/ subway.

Good on you. I've worked in an organisation that was on the recieving end of a small campaign by an unhinged individual involving white powder etc. Another place I worked was closely associated with an unsolved bombing that killed one of our cleaners a couple of decades ago. Don't let the bastards win.

dusty fucked around with this message at Apr 15, 2013 around 18:48

c0ldfuse
Jun 18, 2004


Mister Batman posted:

A friend of my mom actually ran in the marathon, but fortunately finished 30 minutes before the explosions. Weird how there's sometimes so few degrees of separation from things like this.

I was about to take the 35W bridge moments before it fell in Minneapolis, was literally in a turn lane to exit onto it. Looked at the traffic (I could see it from my vantage point) and decided eh... fuck it, traffic looks bad and I've eaten too much pizza from the place I was planning on going. Pulled out of the turn lane, went to another pizza joint which used a different bridge and by the time I got home it was on the news.

Someone asked me if I felt strange about it and I told them I didn't. This is probably the first time I've thought about it in years. I guess it's a mechanism to release control because it's impossible to spend your life worrying if you're going to be on /that/ bridge or /that/ airplane or /that/ subway.

Cabbit
Jul 18, 2001


dusty posted:

I'm sad that 3 people were needlessly killed - but try and wipe away your tears before helplessly lashing out with your keyboard. Breaking news: there are car crashes with higher fatalities than this. Bird Flu has killed more people in China than terror killed people in Boston this morning.



So please, get some perspective for fucks sake. There are a bunch of posters in here with their grief-goggles on acting all irrational - and you wonder why people are worried, concerned and discussing the political ramifications of this?

You're aware that human misery isn't, like, a competition, yeah? Because you seem really, really, tremendously jaded to the point of sort of lacking empathy. I mean, you came into the thread out of nowhere and seemingly lashed out in the first place, pre-emptively, with your "Keep Calm and Carry On" stuff, chiding people for being emotional not less than, what, six hours after two bombs go off in a major city?

I get that people need to move on, to not dwell on this sort of thing and let it fester, and most importantly not let it poison political discourse, but.. damn, man, c'mon. Not even twenty four hours?

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009


Cabbit posted:

You're aware that human misery isn't, like, a competition, yeah? Because you seem really, really, tremendously jaded to the point of sort of lacking empathy. I mean, you came into the thread out of nowhere and seemingly lashed out in the first place, pre-emptively, with your "Keep Calm and Carry On" stuff, chiding people for being emotional not less than, what, six hours after two bombs go off in a major city?

I get that people need to move on, to not dwell on this sort of thing and let it fester, and most importantly not let it poison political discourse, but.. damn, man, c'mon. Not even twenty four hours?
Empathy is weakness, don't you see?

Mister Macys
Apr 20, 2007


TOOT BOOT posted:

If there's video of the bomber in the act of placing the bombs, I wonder why they haven't released it yet.

Might've been more than one person, don't want to mistakenly identify someone as the bomber, don't want to give away investigation techniques/procedure, and various others, I'm sure.


So are we at the theorycrafting part yet?
I believe it'll be an Iraq/Afghan war vet with inadequately treated PTSD, combined with upcoming foreclosure/layoff/medical bankruptcy/all three.
Then add a little Falling Down. Still the most disturbing movie I've ever seen.

Mister Macys fucked around with this message at Apr 15, 2013 around 18:50

Anukis
Jan 22, 2006


dusty posted:

No you see, you and other gibbis superstars shouldn't be posting until any victims have been allowed to reach room temperature... No actually, how about you give the goon jokes a rest? It's just shitting up the thread reading empty quotes coupled with witty one liners that boil down to "Haha :2004: amirite guys?!"
It's not "you are a Something Awful forums poster, ergo a GOON GET IT." It is "you're exhibiting severely underdeveloped intellectual and emotional capabilities and being a tremendous asshole about it, ergo you're a goon of the highest order and not worth seriously engaging in the least."

A lot of better-informed people than you are concerned about the political fallout of this, but unlike you they're actually discussing the real world and not proclaiming how much smarter they are than everyone else because they know about the existence of an internet meme. The absolute last thing I want is a new reason for the US to bomb civilians in other countries, but you're making the point (which is hardly controversial on here) in the most ineffectual, embarrassing way possible.

Plus the whole "Lots of people die for mundane reasons on a daily basis, why aren't you so worried about that? " thing, of course.

Your posts in this thread have made me feel shame on your behalf, is what I'm saying. It's one of the many downfalls of being capable of feeling empathy, I suppose.

dusty
Nov 30, 2004


Sorry if my refusal to act terrorised upsets you. Maybe you'll understand something about my perspective from my last post. It's at times like this you hug your kids and hope the police do the job they train to do.

But most of all: dial down the irrational fear. And try not to actlike an insufferable cunt Anukis.

dusty fucked around with this message at Apr 15, 2013 around 18:58

Vladimir Putin
Mar 16, 2007


KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:

At this point I have doubts that this was an al-Qaeda attack, or even an attack by an Islamist group, since they tend to fall over each other to take credit in the aftermath, with news releases, videos, etc. to maximize the propaganda potential.

But, remember that it took almost a month or more for Al Queda to formally take responsibility for 9/11. I agree with you that I don't think it's Al Queda, but for different reasons.

Plastic Megaphone
Aug 11, 2007


Mister Batman posted:

A friend of my mom actually ran in the marathon, but fortunately finished 30 minutes before the explosions. Weird how there's sometimes so few degrees of separation from things like this.

I'm a newspaper reporter in Wyoming, and managed to track down all three of our local marathoners (alive and well, I might add). But what bothered me was the guy who didn't cross the finish line. He said he was about five miles away when the bombs went off, noting that he'd been running exceptionally poorly today. He said he usually runs a much faster marathon, and the whole time afterward he was wondering whether, if he'd had a "good" day today, he'd still be alive.

djw175
Apr 23, 2012


dusty posted:

Sorry if my refusal to act terrorised upsets you. Maybe you'll understand something about my perspective from my last post. It's at times like this you hug your kids and hope the police do the job they train to do.

But most of all: dial down the irrational fear.

Where is the irrational fear in this thread? All I'm seeing is sadness about loss of life.

Edit: And I guess fear that friends might have been hurt, but I'd hardly call that irrational.

cymbalrush
Jul 12, 2008


dusty posted:

Sorry if my refusal to act terrorised upsets you. Maybe you'll understand something about my perspective from my last post. It's at times like this you hug your kids and hope the police do the job they train to do.

But most of all: dial down the irrational fear.

Irrational fear is not the same thing as feeling empathy you horrible idiot

computer parts
Nov 17, 2010


dusty posted:

Sorry if my refusal to act terrorised upsets you. Maybe you'll understand something about my perspective from my last post. It's at times like this you hug your kids and hope the police do the job they train to do.

But most of all: dial down the irrational fear.

You say, drumming up accusations about how Americans are predisposed to violent reactions.

oldswitcheroo
Apr 26, 2008


dusty posted:

Sorry if my refusal to act terrorised upsets you. Maybe you'll understand something about my perspective from my last post. It's at times like this you hug your kids and hope the police do the job they train to do.

But most of all: dial down the irrational fear.

Sorry if fears don't look all that irrational today.

We just had a city bombed and even the President can't say for sure who the fuck did it. A couple years ago he got to watch Navy Seals with GoPro's on their heads gun down the world's most wanted terrorist. Now this happens and we don't even know that it's over. Whoever did it is probably still in Boston somewhere. We don't even KNOW that this particular terrorist is finished with his spree yet.

I'd say a few extra fears are okay as a precautionary measure.

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009


Ok, I've given it some thought, and the point I think dusty is trying to get across here is that the best way defeat terrorism is to grit your teeth and move on, with life being changed as little as possible as from before. After all, the point of terrorism is to terrorize you and make you change your everyday routine out of fear. And I understand the concept. I have, for one, always been of the opinion that the United States should have just rebuilt the Twin Towers exactly as they were as a big fuck you to Al Queda, but instead they got bogged down in this mess that is the Freedom Tower, which took fucking forever to begin to work out.

But still, emotions exist. They can never really be mastered, only harnessed. And emotions run high when an extremely high-profile public event like this is bombed. It's very easy for most Americans to imagine if they were in a situation like that: not all of us have been to the Boston Marathon, but we've probably all gone to some sort of sporting event or major public gathering at some point. So it strikes home.

Vladimir Putin
Mar 16, 2007


I like the new Freedom Tower better than the old Twin Towers, even if they hadn't been knocked down.

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